Published Date: 09 December 2020 the Monetary Authority of Singapore
James Crabtree: Welcome to the latest edition of the Singapore FinTech Festival. My name is James Crabtree from the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy and I’m going to be your chair as we talk about the Future of Finance is Green. I’m joined today from Ottawa by Mark Carney, former Governor of the Bank of England and now UN Special Envoy for Climate Action and Finance Adviser to the UK Prime Minister for COP 26, and Ravi Menon here in Singapore, who is the Managing Director of the Monetary Authority of Singapore.
We’re going to do this in a fireside chat format and so I’m just going to fire some questions at our two guests. Beginning with you, Mark, you gave a speech last month, in which you outlined a comprehensive agenda for the role private finance needs to play in the run up to next year’s UN Climate Change Conference in Glasgow, can you give us a taste of that agenda? And in a sense, what do you think the real challenge for private sector companies is as opposed to government?
Mark Carney: Yes. Well, first off, thank you, James. And thank you, Ravi, for having me. I wish I were there in Singapore for the Singapore FinTech Festival. But it’s a great initiative and further evidence of MAS’ leadership and Singapore’s leadership in both of these subjects in green finance and FinTech.
I think the great thing is, they’re coming together and mainstreaming. James, to pick up on that point, the objective for Glasgow on the private finance side is to mainstream sustainable finance. If I were to put it in one sentence, the objective is so that all private financial decisions take climate change into account, just as they take creditworthiness into account, they take interest rate risk into account, and future technologies into account. Climate change is one of the determinants of risk and value. Setting that is an objective – one works backwards and thinks about what’s required in order for that to be the case – what’s the information, the tools and the markets that are necessary, so the private sector can do its job in terms of allocating capital, managing risks, and seizing opportunities.
The way we’ve grouped it for the strategy is around three R’s and an M. The first R is climate reporting based off the Task Force on Climate-related Financial Disclosures (TCFD) and the objective is ambitious. We want to have pathways to mandatory climate disclosure. The good news is there are a variety of ways that that can happen, whether it’s through the International Financial Reporting Standards’ (IFRS) initiative around sustainability reporting, national initiatives with legislation initiatives at the European level, or through regulators and supervisors as well. Basically, we want to move to a system pretty quickly where climate reporting is comprehensive, consistent across jurisdictions, and investors have the information.
Secondly, we need to be better risk managers around climate risk. I’m sure we’ll dive into that. One of the challenges is that the past is not prologue with climate so it’s more difficult to manage those risks. It’s not just about the physical risks, it’s about the success of climate policies or so-called transition risk – activities that are economic in the short term, but non-economic in a truly sustainable sense – and that will become more obvious.
The third area is around returns and how capital is allocated. What are the tools for capital allocation and also, how do pools of capital, whether they’re large pension funds or asset managers, or anyone in between, relate to their clients, all of us and all of our savings? How well are those savings positioned along the transition towards net zero? That’s an easy question to ask. It’s a harder one to answer. We’re working with the industry to get those answers.
The last issue, an area which I know Ravi and MAS have done a lot of work is around carbon offset markets and nature-based solutions. These markets are small, they’re fragmented at present. There are some concerns of greenwashing in them and they need to be professionalised. These are markets that currently are measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars and should be in the tens of billions of dollars. In fact, probably around US$100 billion per annum in size. We’re working to develop the architecture for that. Bill Winters, the CEO of Standard Chartered Bank, is leading a very large taskforce on this. The first report has come out so all of those building blocks are being put in place. The great thing about having a deadline, having Glasgow in less than 12 months, is we know what we have to work towards. We’re working with international partners in the private and public sector and with the best thinkers, including Ravi.
James Crabtree: Just before I turn to Ravi and Singapore, just give us a sense of how big a lift this is going to be. In the speech, you talked about the fact that we have leading companies who are committing to net zero in various different ways over a particular period of time, but how far behind target are we and how much of a big push does this require?
Mark Carney: Well, it’s suffice to say a few years ago this was - I’m trying to think of the polite way to say it - it was on the periphery, or only leading-edge companies and banks and pools of capital really systematically looked at climate risk. Now, this is mainstreaming. And it’s mainstreaming very rapidly. I think the important thing is that it mainstreams at a very high standard. We’re in a position now where, for example, if I total up all the balance sheets that want climate disclosure across pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, asset managers, banks, it’s now US$170 trillion that’s demanding this climate disclosure.
That shows how much the industry has moved. Climate disclosure only came out of the TCFD recommendations under Mike Bloomberg’s leadership three years ago. You’ve moved from a standing start, then, to where we are now. But, I think as we all know, with climate, we don’t have a lot of time. While tremendous progress has been made, we need to keep up that momentum and keep that trajectory going.
James Crabtree: Ravi, same question to you in a sense, how does this look like in Singapore? I mean, how is MAS working with the private sector in this part of the world to try and meet these kinds of targets that Governor Carney is talking about?
Ravi Menon: Thanks James, and thanks for doing this. I also want to thank Mark for joining us for the Singapore FinTech Festival. It is great to have you.
Well, I wish I was doing Mark’s job with a singular focus on sustainability. Unfortunately, we’re also faced with a huge pandemic and economic crisis. At the MAS and in Singapore, we first have to deal with the COVID-19 situation with very unconventional responses to support people and businesses. Of course, our core functions of maintaining monetary and financial stability take up a lot of resources. But I’m happy to say that we managed to find the bandwidth to press on with our forward-looking agenda to emerge stronger and in a better place after the crisis.
For the MAS, we have three priorities for the long term: first, upscaling the workforce for inclusive growth, second, digitalisation and harnessing technology, and third, sustainability – harnessing the power of finance to help make Asia green and move towards a lower carbon future.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised that the momentum on sustainability has remained very strong. Mark has spoken to this as well. I’m also heartened that despite the challenges we’re facing on the pandemic and economic fronts, I think this year, we’ve seen more pledges for carbon neutrality by both corporates and countries. It shows a certain seriousness of purpose and a realisation that this is an issue we need to focus on and step up to.
I share Mark’s views fully that the financial sector has a tremendously important role to play, simply because it provides money through loans or through financing, for investments, or through insurance. This can shape behaviour. We’ve seen tremendous growth in the issuance of green and sustainable bonds and loans in the first three quarters of this year, right through the pandemic.
If I may just add, DBS Bank, for instance, launched the world’s first Sustainable Transition Finance Framework. Transition finance is important in Asia. We’re not quite where Europe is, there are pressing needs of economic development and very difficult trade-offs to make.
The challenge here in Asia is for transition financing - how can we move corporates and other entities towards cleaner and greener forms of energy and activities, and also to develop an appropriate taxonomy for this. DBS was also the first Asian bank to join the global renewable energy initiative, RE100, and commit to utilise 100% renewable energy in all its markets. There are lots of such examples I could cite. You see this happening in Asia, which you did not see, say, a year or two ago.
On the MAS side, we’ve been making some progress since last year under what we call our Green Finance Action Plan, and setting some clear targets and initiatives. We just launched the world’s first Green and Sustainability-Linked Loan Grant Scheme. We will provide a small amount of funding for corporates, especially Small and Medium Enterprises, who want to obtain green and sustainable financing but need to engage independent service providers to validate the green and sustainability credentials of the loan and their activities. Through this grant, we’re hoping to make it easier for them to offset these costs and source for green loans. This also helps the banks to develop good sustainable lending frameworks and standard templates that they can apply to Small and Medium Enterprises especially.
The other thing we did was to issue a set of Guidelines on Environmental Risk Management. We applied a standard set of Guidelines to all our banks, insurance companies, and asset managers. We’ve also been stepping up supervisory engagements with financial institutions.
The capacity building efforts in environmental risk analysis is important too. The Guidelines go beyond just climate risk; it also covers biodiversity and other environmental risks because these risks interact in ways that we don’t fully understand. But it’s good for financial institutions to be keenly aware of these risks.
The Bank of England has led the way – they will be doing climate-related stress tests, I think in the coming year. MAS is going to follow suit, we’ve set a target: within the next two years. We’re stepping up with the banks to put in place mechanisms, capabilities, and modelling techniques in order to do these stress tests in a meaningful way.
There’s going to be a lot of learning along this process. An intention at least for us at the MAS is not to, you know, have capital charges and so on attached to these results, but just to learn how this risk assessment is done, how should we look at these risks and better understand them before we start taking other kinds of measures.
The other thing we’re doing is capability building and research. We just set up the Singapore Green Finance Centre. We need Asia-focused green finance research. As I said, in Asia, the challenge is transition. We need training programmes and modelling of climate risks in the region. The Centre is a collaboration between Imperial College London Business School and the Singapore Management University - I’m quite excited by this. They’ve got a good programme, bringing financial risk modelling together with a deep understanding of climate risks and environmental risks.
At the MAS, we’re doing our own bit too. We need to practice what we preach. We’re going to start measuring our own carbon footprint, set some targets next year and start disclosures. Disclosures - I fully agree with Mark - is the crux of the whole thing. If you don’t measure and disclose, then all the other actions can’t take place. That’s been our focus for this year, and next year, and we want to get that off the top here.
James Crabtree: Very good. Ravi, you mentioned the pandemic and I guess we have to deal with this head on. So Mark, let me ask this of you. This could go both ways – I suppose on one hand, the pandemic might focus the mind and make us realise that we all need to act together in the face of common threat; or as Ravi mentioned rightly in the beginning, it might be a gigantic distraction in which all policymakers who should be thinking about this on the road to Glasgow are thinking about something else. How do you see it? Will we come out ahead after the pandemic, or does it mean we’re going to be racing to catch up?
Mark Carney: Yeah, I think and we heard it in Ravi’s answer that we’re going to come out ahead. I think if you’d asked me the question back in March, I would have said on the one hand, on the other hand and been unsure. But this has happened, at a high level – we’ve recognised the importance of resilience and sustainability, absolutely, in our economies. Of course, both of those go directly to climate.
Secondly, virtually every company has had to look at their strategy as a consequence of the pandemic. Because of the acceleration of everything digital, changes in supply chains, etc, they have had to relook at their strategy at a time when the society is saying to put an emphasis on resilience and sustainability, and to put an emphasis on net zero.
The bringing together of those two aspects has meant a much greater focus on exactly what Ravi highlighted, which is the transition. I really should emphasise this, which is, in order to get to where we need to go, it’s a whole economy transition. Of course, it would be ideal if we could just leapfrog directly to a green economy. We need to take the industrial structure, the manufacturing structure, the service structure we have, and move it rapidly. That’s where finance really comes into play because it’s every decision – every loan decision, every investment decision. There has been an acceleration, James, I’m happy to say. With this opportunity comes great responsibility, we have to make sure we have the building blocks in place.
James Crabtree: Ravi, I’m going to take it you probably agree with this, but maybe not. What’s your sense?
Ravi Menon: I fully agree with that. You hear this in Asia, quite often, there are tensions between sustainability and the need to provide electricity to villages who still don’t have it. You know, burning coal is the easiest and most affordable way to do it when your budgets are stretched, especially during times like these. The trade-offs are quite acute in this part of the world. I also think, however, that if you look beyond the short-term, there are huge growth opportunities in the transition to a more sustainable future.
In Singapore, we’re looking at how we can create new economic value – new kinds of investments and jobs in what we would call a green economy. There is new infrastructure that needs to be built, which requires new kinds of expertise. There’s a whole transition taking place. It’s just like digitalisation. So far, it has created more jobs than destroyed them, at least that is our experience. All the financial institutions here are employing more people right through the pandemic crisis because of the digital transformation journey. Likewise, they are now looking to employ more people to advance the green finance agenda.
I think there is a lot of scope here. For instance, greening our towns. That’s one of the things that the Singapore government is doing. The Green Towns Programme looks at lowering energy consumption, recycling rainwater, cooling the ambient temperature through the use of technologies. All this creates new investment opportunities, new activities, and new value.
Decarbonisation has short-term costs. But in the medium-term, the payoffs are good. I think in this part of the world, because of what I said earlier, the reality of dependence on fossil fuels, the kinds of technologies that we focus on will have to take that into account. For instance, more focus on hydrogen, carbon capture, utilisation and storage and so on, to the extent that some of the countries here may also be limited in their capacity to generate renewable energy.
These are new areas. The idea of a circular economy is important, where you can lower your carbon footprint not just through technology and energy efficiency, but by recycling. Recycling is a good value system to have as well. Singapore is the first country in the world to achieve circularity in the water sector. Almost every drop of used water is recycled – the water is collected through drainage and catchment areas, and then that’s filtered and recycled for use again. We’re trying to do that with waste, sand, plastics, and so on. But if we set our minds to it, there is a lot of new activity, employing people in new areas and new technologies. I don’t think the trade-offs are that sharp if you start taking a longer-term perspective.
James Crabtree: Mark, do you want to come in on this question of the balance between the developed and the developing world, as you try and push forward this agenda. I presume that there’s a particular role to be played for multinationals, which tend to be headquartered in rich countries, but operate in developing countries. In a sense, how do you see the different responsibilities between the advanced industrialised companies and those from the emerging world?
Mark Carney: Okay, well, let me pick up a bit on what Ravi was just saying as well. Which is, what comes through in those various initiatives is looking at the ecosystem: the economy as a system, waste management as a system, recycling as a system.
To answer your question, how do we put together the global economy as a system and think about sustainability in a systemic way? One of the ways you do it is for a large multinational corporation, not to just disclose their so-called Scope 1 emissions – the emissions from their direct operations and Scope 2, which is the power used for the direct operations, but to think about Scope 3 as well. So all the way, up-and-down their supply chain, and value chain indeed, all the way out to the customer, including the supplier. Now, once you do that, for many of these companies, you capture the globe and effectively, you’re touching on so many countries at one time and thinking about aligning the incentives across that value chain to reduce your carbon footprint, your GHG footprint.
That is very quickly becoming expected, I was going to say best practice, but expected of companies – disclosure and management towards net zero of their Scope 3 emissions. That’s another change that’s happened really only in the last year, or 18 months. That level of ambition, that’s one way that we connect the advanced and the emerging and developing economies, mainly developing economies.
A second way is through these carbon offset markets I mentioned at the outset. Many of the most efficient, cheapest, best and most impactful – from a biodiversity perspective as well – nature-based solutions and carbon offsets will be found in developing economies.
Now there’s a huge incentive as companies around the world start to move towards net zero. In the initial phases, they need to find the net. They’re trying to reduce absolute emissions, and they must, but they also need to net those offsets. And that also preserves our carbon budget. It gives a huge incentive if we structure this market correctly. It gives a huge incentive for them to invest in nature-based solutions. Also, tipping the economics of convergence that Ravi spoke a few minutes ago about coal and other fossil fuel-based energy sources. Tipping the economics of that towards renewables even further. That’s the second way we can do it.
The third way we can do it is to blend private finance with some multilateral finance through the Multilateral Development Banks (MDBs) to adjust the risk profile. Just to put it in a bigger perspective: the various estimates of what’s needed in terms of investment, if I average them out, it’s around US$3.5 trillion of resilient or sustainable infrastructure over the course of the next three decades. Three-and-a-half per annum over the course of the next three decades. That’s roughly twice the pace of current infrastructure investment, and about 70% or three quarters of that, effectively will be in emerging and developing economies. We have to create a system that drives investment in those regards and through Scope 3 disclosures, and incentives through carbon markets and through blended finance. We can do it.
James Crabtree: Very good. We are here gathered to be part of the Singapore FinTech Festival and so we should talk about FinTech. Let me first ask Mark, and then Ravi. We had at this Festival, literally tens of thousands of businesses in all sorts of areas who might play some role, either because they themselves are going to have to go through this process that you’ve talked about, or they may bring innovations to the table. In which ways are you most excited about FinTech and the intersection of finance and technology playing a role in solving these problems? Mark first you, then Ravi.
Mark Carney: Well, one of the things that I get most excited about when I deal with FinTech is that I don’t know what they’re going to come up with. You set out the problem and they will come up with the solution. They’ll come up with innovative ideas. The degree of innovation is truly astounding. We see it in the UK, we see it in Singapore, we see it around the world and the important thing is to knit it together.
Let me give you a few examples. One of the things that we will need for the carbon offset markets is real-time verification technologies. That could be based off of Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellite technologies. In fact, Low Earth Orbit satellite technologies are being put in place. This is so that we know the nature-based solution is there, that the offset is still there. That will give confidence and that will drive investment. That’s one example.
A second example, Ravi mentioned earlier, is climate stress testing. The technology around climate stress testing, the forward scenario analysis and the sensitivities of that, that is new and emerging financial technology.
As is my third example - ways to think about portfolio warming of pools of capital. If I’m an asset manager of a pension fund, what’s my contribution to global warming and not what is my carbon footprint today. Given the companies I own and the assets I own, what’s the trajectory for those assets? What am I doing? Or what are they doing to help with the transition? Again, the important thing is to transition. Over the course of the next few decades, if I held that portfolio, and the world looked like my portfolio, where would we end up? The technology to answer those questions is being developed, there’s a few pools of capital, some large insurers who already do estimates of this. It can get a lot better through FinTech.
Another one is, one we all know and benefit from, the emergent e-commerce and other platforms that are being developed. The FinTech behind that - the payments technology that’s being developed, a number of those leading payment companies are developing and blending net zero with the payment chain. In other words, if I’m an SME, I want to do the right thing, I go on the platform. I’m sitting in Ottawa and I want to sell to Singapore and I want my client in Singapore to know that this is a net zero delivered product. How do I do it? I’ve got myself and 10 other people, and there are a few companies that I can plug into now, including FinTech companies on the payment side, that will make that a reality.
Perhaps I should stop there, because Ravi’s going to have a list of some pretty good ones that I want to hear what he has to say. But that’s it. That’s some sense of the scale of the applications that are there. I would underscore that I see the tip of the iceberg and what’s really exciting about it is there’s a lot more that will be going on.
James Crabtree: Ravi, hit us with some more examples with what you’re excited about!
Ravi Menon: Well, as Mark said, when you give a problem to FinTechs, you’re just amazed at what they come up with. Every year at the FinTech Festival, we have what we call the Hackcelerator Challenge, the FinTech Innovation Challenge, where we collate real problem statements from financial institutions that want a solution, and then we put them out to the global community. We got responses from more than 80 countries. It’s just amazing what some of these solutions are. If you’re sourcing only within your own market, you never get to see that range.
This year, in addition to pandemic risk management, we put out a challenge to solve problems that financial institutions have with respect to measuring climate risk, environmental risk management, and how to design good green finance solutions and products. We put out the challenge, the submissions have come in, and we’ve got 20 finalists.
So, I think we need to harness the innovative energy across the world, to solve many of these problems. Actually, the problems are not so much in the technologies. Mark has listed a few and I’m not going to add to that list. There are AI platforms that match institutional investors with ESG business opportunities. We’ve seen a wealth management solutions that incorporate climate change scenarios so that investors, as Mark said, can model their wealth projections and financial goals depending on what they think the extent of global warming or mitigation efforts might be.
The real problem that we need to solve is the availability and quality of data. Without data, many of these technologies are not going to work well. In fact, I would say ESG data is the foundation of green finance. Today, there are serious gaps in the data value chain. How this data is acquired, there’s a lack of transparency. The quality varies a great deal. There’s a lack of timeliness, you don’t get real time data. There’s a lack of trust to share this data.
The first step is to solve the data problem, see how we can use technology to solve that, to provide trusted and quality data. Mark mentioned a few; we can use IoT devices and AI to deploy on-location to collect data in real-time. Then, we can push the data onto online cloud platforms, for investors to monitor the commitments of the investee companies on a real-time basis.
If you can also integrate the systems – Mark spoke about this at the corporate level – the waste management system or the building management system in the company. There is a lot of data there. If you can integrate that data, and send it via Application Programming Interfaces (APIs) to collect and consolidate the data on electrical consumption, waste, output, and so on, you get something that’s more real-time, and you reduce the reliance on corporate self-reporting.
The other thing you need is external certification. You need the equivalent of strong rating agencies, who today provide us insights about what’s going on in the markets, credit risks and so on. We need the equivalent of those kinds of service providers in the sustainability space, whom you can trust and who have the technologies and can employ these technologies for ensuring data provenance and verification.
There’s also the potential, I think, to use blockchain technology. For example, if I’m sending something across the supply chain from Ottawa to Singapore, how do I know the auditability and traceability along that chain in terms of whether the green credentials or sustainability credentials are good. People are experimenting using distributed ledgers, where the verification is through the blockchain and then to also automate pricing. Because you can change your pricing if the sustainability credentials are not in keeping with what you’re contracted originally.
The possibilities are tremendous. The sooner we can move to something close to real-time ESG KPI performance and monitoring, the trust for engaging in green financing will be much more. At MAS, we are looking to create a technology platform that comprises a variety of FinTech solutions to address some of these existing gaps. I must say it’s still experimental. The idea is to create a platform and bring people onboard to experiment, exchange ideas and see if we can make some moves along those lines.
Mark Carney: One thing Ravi said about data: obviously, in many respects, the road to Glasgow was paved with data, at least on the finance side. There’s an importance of having, and the ability to have, a single company view around sustainability and ESG data.
Of course, we recognise that in finance, sometimes for some reasons, capital allocators, banks, insurers, others will use a rating - an external rating, Ravi referenced it and I recognise that. But we also want the ability to go down into the data, including, very importantly through the supply chain, the value chain and make judgments based on that in order to price transition to support transition. Again, we’re creating a bunch of new data for the purposes of sustainability. We need to organise it in a way that those who really want to crunch through it can do it as efficiently as possible.
Ravi Menon: Let me come back to the data issue. There are probably three ways you can address the data issues. One is corporate self-disclosure, two is external certification and verification by players like rating agencies, or experts in the field. And three is real-time technology monitoring, which doesn’t depend on any of these.
I think the third is probably the most reliable. But at this point, it’s probably furthest from reality. Which is why I think the focus has been correctly on self-disclosure - try to measure it as best as you can and be subject to investor and market scrutiny. Then, try to establish these sources of expertise, which can make these external verifications even as we work on the technology side.
We’re kind of looking at all three buckets. We think the third is the best, but it’s probably gonna take longer. In the meantime, we probably have to depend on the first two. I don’t know if Mark has a perspective on this.
Mark Carney: I agree with what you’re saying, Ravi, and I’m conscious that as with everything with climate, I’m looking at the clock. We have four minutes left! And we overran James’ last question. I think we better hand it back to our moderator here.
James Crabtree: No, that’s fine! It’s meant to be a fireside chat, so the moderator encourages chatting. Mark, let me close this out with you because as you say, we’re running short of time. You’ve talked a lot about the road to Glasgow; right back at the beginning, you talked about an agenda on risk management. Nestled within this agenda, there are some much more difficult things, for instance, mandatory reporting standards. If you were, as opposed to merely the UN Special Envoy for Climate Action, if you were, a global Emperor for a day, which would be the things that you would want to happen coming out of Glasgow that are going to be the things that we should be looking out for. What are the kind of critical things you want to achieve in this area?
Mark Carney: Yes. You rightly started with mandatory disclosure. I think one of the very important things that happened the same day as that speech was the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK announced that the UK will have mandatory climate disclosure. It’s a phased approach but it rolls in starting in January of next year and cascades through.
That will be a big focus – it’ll be a focus in the G7 which the UK is chairing, it’ll be a focus in the G20 which Italy is chairing. I would add, for those who aren’t following these things closely, the UK is hosting COP26 in Glasgow in partnership with Italy, so there’s very much alignment there.
Second thing we would like to see is as many central banks and supervisors following the lead of the MAS and the Bank of England in launching or moving towards the climate stress tests. To be clear, these are not ‘gotcha’ stress tests. This is a symbiotic process with the financial sector where the regulators and the risk practitioners in the financial sector are getting better at managing these types of risks because, quite frankly, they haven’t been managed in the past. There’s no point crying over spilled, you know, that’s water under the bridge. The point is to move forward.
Thirdly, we really want to see this carbon market, develop this carbon offset market. It’s a necessary market, the private sector needs it, it’s focused on getting it, but we need to develop it. If it’s going to work, it is going to very quickly be a global market. And that’s essential.
Lastly, the people who invest our money, the people who are watching their money as well, need to be able to answer the question in a comprehensible and accurate way: is it helping to solve climate change? Is it on the right side of climate history? Or is it part of the problem? A simple ESG-type badge is not going to answer that question. We need richer taxonomies, we need a way of channelling that in and potentially to something as simple as this portfolio is one-and-a-half degree warming. In other words, it’s Paris-aligned. It’s solving the problem and this other one isn’t. We need the best in finance to work on that and help come up with that answer on how to do it.
James Crabtree: Excellent. Well, I’m more drawn to this, more optimistic than I entered, which is a good thing. Thank you very much to both of you for taking time out of your days to do this. We have talked about the future of finance being green. I think we’ve covered an awful lot of interesting ground. Mark and Ravi, many thanks and I hope you enjoy the rest of the FinTech Festival.
Mark Carney: Will do, thank you. Thank you very much, Ravi. Always a pleasure.
Ravi Menon: Thank you too, and see you around.