December 9, 2021Ebro Darden: We have Mayor de Blasio on the phone. Mayor Bill de Blasio: Good morning, Ebro. Good morning, everyone. Darden: Good morning. Back on the program. Thank you for taking the time out. We want to dive right in to this new vaccine mandate that has now made it so five- to 11-year-olds, to get into a restaurant in New York City need to get vaccinated. Mayor, why are we taking this approach? Or, why are you taking this approach, your administration taking this approach? And tell me, you know, is it just preemptive? Is that what this is about? In anticipation of a tough winter? Mayor: It""s going to be very tough. Ebro, it is – it""s a preemptive strike. I mean, look, winter, we know, unfortunately, COVID spreads in winter. People indoors – we know holiday gatherings, we love them, but also there""s going to be a lot of spread of COVID. But we also have now Omicron. And this variant, what we know so far is it appears to transmit much more quickly, even than Delta. So, what I""m saying is, you know, this new variant moves fast. We have to move faster. We have to get ahead of it, because my bottom line is we cannot go back to shutdowns. We cannot go back to restrictions. We see them start – you know, in parts of the world, they""re now going back to shutdowns of different kinds. Darden: True. That""s true. Mayor: And we cannot go through that. So, we’ve got to be more aggressive. So, it""s making sure our youngest New Yorkers have vaccinated. And also, I""ve put a mandate on all private sector employers. There""s time now for everyone to get vaccinated, to make sure we""re safe and we just end this. We’ve got to end it. 2022 has to be a year where we put COVID in the background once and for all. Peter Rosenberg: It feels though, like, to me, that we don""t necessarily have enough information on the [inaudible] if you will, to know that this, is in my opinion – you know certainly much more than I do, I""m sure. I hope – that this is a worthy preemptive strike. And I say that as someone who""s vaccinated, boosted, and have said on this show every single day that I absolutely believe the vaccine is the move to make to protect yourself and your family. I support that 1,000 percent. It did – to me, it felt like this was a late – an odd moment to put something in and enforce something that is potentially a really huge deal, private sector, people not being able to work at those jobs. Like, do you really think that what we know about Omicron, it""s enough of a reason to do this? Mayor: Yeah. And I""ll tell you where I""m getting that information from, is from our health care leadership that has been seeing this city through this fight the whole way. I mean, we""re getting – we""re getting response from all over the country from health care leaders saying, this is exactly what we need. You know, President Biden, to his credit, has been very aggressive. He tried to do a mandate for larger employers and that got tied up in court for specific reasons. But this one we""re quite convinced is 100 percent legal. It is a Health Commissioner""s Order and it""s necessary and timely. So, the reason I would tell you, Rosenberg, it""s very timely, is because we""re facing a new threat. And if we don""t bring new tools to bear, we""re going to wish we had. I""m telling you, if we don""t act now, we""re going to look back and regret it. Here""s the thing, we gave people incentives. We gave people education. We gave people time. But what really worked in recent months was mandates. The mandates we put on the City employees worked, everyone acknowledges it. The mandates for the restaurants, indoor entertainment worked. Restaurants are back. Broadway’s back. It""s all working. We need to go the next step now. Darden: When you say worked – you know, because there""s definitely people who, you know, don""t feel like it""s working for them, right? Specifically. So – and I – and, you know, and I""m sure you know this as somebody who is managing large swaths of people in this city, people think very individualistically. And to hear you say, look, this is what the health care people are telling me we need to do, so I did it – obviously, people assume that when these decisions are made, these are decisions that you want to make, specifically. Can you talk about what it – what working looks like? I know you talked about Broadway being open, these other things, but there""s people who are now unemployed, because the vaccine doesn""t make sense for them. There are people who, you know, are, you know, trying to bring class action lawsuits, etcetera, etcetera. We hear all this noise. So, I just want to dig deeper into what working means. Mayor: Well, I think these are very, very powerful questions – truly, Ebro. I think working means that folks get vaccinated. The vast, vast majority of folks who are not vaccinated – we""ve seen it consistently, it""s not ideological. It is either fear, or lack of information, or misinformation, or needing a little more reason to get vaccinated. When we did the public employee mandates, we""re talking now 94 percent of our City workforce is vaccinated, and that is keeping everyone safe – those workers, their families, the whole community. We’ve seen with indoor dining, entertainment, a huge number of jobs were saved, because it was a safe environment. And, of course, lives are saved. Every time people get vaccinated, you are saving – you""re saving lives, because with these incredibly virulent variants, they""re looking for the next victim all the time. And when we cut them off with vaccination, we""re saving lives. So, I do understand truly when someone says, well, what if it doesn""t work for me as an individual? But I would argue this, what""s really unfair to the vast majority of people is going back to shutdowns, going back to restrictions. What""s unfair to the vast majority of people is letting a disease run wild when we could stop it, or letting people die who we could have saved. I believe in individual rights and liberties, I really do. But I think there is a need – a community need that is so much greater than any one of us at this point. That""s what I""m acting on. Darden: And as in this job, as the Mayor of New York City, what I hear you saying is you need to do what""s best for most. Mayor: Not just most – vast majority. Ebro, we announced yesterday that, you know, we know we heard recently from CDC, United States of America. 60 percent of all Americans, all ages now, fully vaccinated. Well, in New York City, we""ve gotten that number of up to 70 percent. And when you talk about adults specifically, 89 percent of adults have had at least one dose in New York City. That""s super, super, super majority. That means the society, the community has made a decision and we’ve got to respect that""s what people need to be safe. We will do everything to work with someone who has a different view or a different need. We understand – I believe in things like religious accommodations, medical accommodations. They are fairly rare, but I believe it""s a right people have. But we’ve got to think about, this is not business as usual. This is a global pandemic that""s trying to kick the door back open again with Omicron. It""s trying to come back at us in the worst time of year. And we""re not going to do business as usual. If we do business as usual, we are going to sorely regret it. Darden: How much – when you look at everything that you and your administration managed during the pandemic, when you start seeing this new variant and when you start getting this new information, I""m sure it""s triggering for you just on an emotional level, because, you know – and look, we talk to nurses, and hospital workers, and EMT workers up here, people who – you know, teachers and things who are on the front lines of this. You know, they want to take – many of them want to take all precautions. But how triggering is it emotionally and personally for you? Mayor: I appreciate that question a lot of you, Ebro. And I appreciate that you have been talking to the people who were at the front lines during this, because, really, there is a heroic story of this city and the people and what they did, how they helped each other, how they saved each other. But what I""ll tell you personally – oh my God, it takes me right back. March 2020, April 2020, we were living on the edge. We did not have any of the tools we needed from the federal government and we were trying to somehow make sense of the, you know, unthinkable. And it""s a lot better now compared to then. But what we have learned from this disease is, never take it lightly. Never, never take your eye off COVID. Never act like it""s a, you know, stable situation. This is a very, very wily opponent. And that the triggering thing for me is like, you know, never again – never let this never let this disease back in, because I remember the sirens. I remember the horrible things was went through. And also, I want save every life. And I know every single additional person who gets vaccinated, every booster shot, it is going to help us save lives, period. Rosenberg: How do you react to those who may have heard about this and think it relates to political aspirations and the thoughts that you are going to run for Governor after your time as Mayor? Mayor: I think when people say that – first of all, with all due respect to anyone says that, I think they""re missing the really urgent, deeply troubling situation we are going into. And the fact that the medical community across the board is sounding the alarm and saying we need stronger measures. And second, you know, I started mandates a long time ago and it had nothing to do with politics. It was about how we protected the people of city. That""s my number-one job. And I said early on we would climb the ladder, which meant we would go up, and up, and up in terms of stronger measures if we needed to. And, for a while, it looked like we might be able to really push COVID down enough that we could just move forward into 2022. But then we saw – you""ve seen this huge surge in cases now and you""re seeing the hospitals start to fill up. In parts of New York State, hospitals are overwhelmed right now. So, this is not a drill. This is the real thing. And we’ve got to be tough right now about this. Darden: I think people miss that a lot, Mayor de Blasio – about, you know, once again, vaccines are not a cure. It is meant to keep serious illness, hospitalization, and death out of the way. And I think often what""s glossed over is, our health care system""s ability to accommodate mass amounts of seriously sick individuals. Because oftentimes, when people are talking about the vax, they think it""s – people in their brains think it""s some sort of cure and it""s not. So, when you hear about a breakthrough case or somebody who""s vaccinated and still got COVID, etcetera, etcetera, but they didn""t go to the hospital and they didn""t die. And I think sometimes, you know, when we""re having this discussion, we need to impress upon people that this is about death and making sure that our hospitals can function, and even take care of just the regular day-to-day emergencies that we have in hospitals, because, when they were overrun, we couldn""t do that. Mayor: That""s exactly right. There was a powerful moment when Mitch Katz – Dr. Mitch Katz, head of our public hospitals – someone was saying, well, you know, what about all the concern about the vaccine and the side effects? And he said, well, I respect if anyone""s concerned about the side effects of the vaccine, but let me tell you about the side effects of COVID – it could kill you. He said it that bluntly. It""s still killing people every day in this city. And, you""re right – and it starts to compromise the hospitals, then people are in danger for a lot of other reasons. So, this is like – this is the moment right now. And the urgency I""m feeling is, we can move now before we end up in that situation. Literally, up in Buffalo right now, hospitals overwhelmed. Can""t let that happen here. You know, biggest city in America, densely populated. we cannot let that happen here. And you know what happens when the hospitals get overwhelmed? Then, everything else starts to shut down. Then you have the businesses shutting down, the theaters shutting down, the restrictions. We cannot do that again. That will destroy so many people""s livelihoods and lives. We cannot do that again. Laura Stylez: Mayor de Blasio, have you spoken to Eric Adams? And does he agree with you and does he stand by these mandates? Do you really feel that he""s going to make some changes when it comes to the mandates? Do you think he""s going to stand by it? Mayor: You know, Laura, I""ve had very good conversations with him about it. I started speaking to him well before we finalized this decision and he""s always been real clear about the fact he understands, as he prepares to become Mayor, the first mission is to protect people, and that is urgent. And he understands that, you know, what I""m doing now is what I believe is the very best way to protect people right this minute. He will make his own judgment in his own time, but he said very clearly his greatest concern is what are the health care leaders saying? He wants to follow the data and the science. And the health care leaders are saying overwhelmingly, we need this. In fact, we need this everywhere. I""ve been calling upon mayors, governors, CEOs all over the country – do this now. Do this now and you will not regret it. In fact, you""ll regret it later if you don""t do it now. Use your powers now while you can save lives. So, I feel, you know, it""s been a very good dialogue. And listening to the doctors, it""s crystal clear what we have to do. Darden: Looking forward, I know – look, having a vaccine – having a vaccine, proof of vaccine to go to a restaurant or to check out a movie or anything is – you know, it""s all brand new for all of us. And we, obviously, don""t want to live in this space forever. Are we living in a time where this is the – this is the new normal? That you""ll have to have some sort of proof of vaccine? You know, it""s two shots now and then it""ll be a – I""m sure at some point is going to be, now you’ve got to have proof of a booster. Like, all of these things continue to go on. Or does this – if we get through winter and death stay relatively low and we stay in control of COVID cases, do you see some of this tension, kind of, relaxing a little bit? Mayor: I do. I do. I""m hopeful, truly hopeful, because I think what we""ve done in this city – and we should all be proud of it – is, we have literally led the nation. New York City has led the nation. We""ve had the most aggressive approach. We""re one of the safest places in America right now. We have one of the highest levels of vaccination and it""s about to grow a lot more, because of all of the different mandates in place. And what it means to me is, you get through those cold months. Hopefully, you know, we can keep Omicron within control, because we got so vaccinated. You come out into the spring in a much better situation. Yeah, we""ll have to make sure people do boosters in 2022, and all that. But, as early as 2022, I think this could become more like what the flu has been for many years for us. Flu is a real serious disease, but it got controlled, because people regularly got flu shots. It wasn""t a big deal – once a year, you got a flu shot. Enough people did that to helped keep it under control. I think that""s what the future looks like. I do not think this is the new normal. I think this is a transitional phase. But the irony is, if we are not aggressive now, then we""re going to live in this reality a lot longer. This is the moment to take COVID down, put it in its place. If we blow this moment, then it""s just going to linger with us a lot longer. Darden: Switching gears Mayor de Blasio. We recently got – saw a news story. I""m sure you saw it. New York City, worse traffic in America, I think, right now. Mayor: I believe – I""m not shocked by that, because – especially because of COVID, so many people are staying in their cars. And we’ve got to help them get back to the subways and buses, and get back to, at least, a better place where we were before. Darden: But we had you on several years ago where you said that our – you know, when you were talking about the bike lanes, and you were talking about public transportation, and you were talking about what is it called – the new – you know, where you have to pay to come into Manhattan, and if you didn’t – Mayor: Congestion pricing – Darden: Yeah, congestion pricing. If you didn""t enact all these things, with the amount of people who were moving to New York City – and this is pre COVID, we were having this conversation – that, ultimately, the city would not be able to function. Are we seeing that sooner now because of COVID and the outdoor seating that is blocking a lot of the cross town blocks in Manhattan? Mayor: No, I don""t agree with that. I""ll tell you, I think outdoor dining has been amazing for this city. I think it has helped – we saved, you know, at least 100,000 jobs with it to begin with. But, more importantly, it gave life, and spirit, and hope. And I think it""s been a good part, a wonderful part of the future of the city. I don""t think that""s where congestion""s coming from. It""s coming from too many people staying in their cars, because they""re still concerned about COVID. And I understand why. Now, folks are starting to come back to the subways, and that""s very good sign. We’ve got to contain COVID, be very muscular about it. Contain COVID, that""s going to get more and more people back to mass transit and out of their cars. We’ve got to put congestion pricing in place, that""s going to discourage particularly folks who, you know, just driving in alone from suburbs and other parts of the city. It""s going to discourage them from doing that. It""s going to encourage mass transit, encourage carpooling. I do think we can turn the corner, but we’ve got to hurry up on congestion pricing, because that""s a really important tool. And I really think people are going to go back to subways, buses, the ferries. I think that""s going to be more and more of our life in 2022. Darden: Mayor de Blasio, thank you for your time today. Any – before we let you go today, I know, you know, you""ve been having a lot of conversations about things going on at Rikers, and the problems, and you""ve been an advocate for, you know, shutting it down. It""s not happening fast enough. People want – where are we with cleaning up Rikers and opening these new facilities? Where – is that still going? Is it paused? What""s going on? Mayor: No, it""s going forward. It""s going forward, Ebro. We’ve got to shut Rikers once and for all. It should have happened a long time ago. We’ve got to do it now. The plans are absolutely moving forward. And I want to urge everyone, stay focused on this issue, keep the momentum up, close Rikers once and for all. For anyone in – you know, we also just have to keep reducing incarceration in the right way. We""ve proven you can keep the city safe. Before COVID, we reduced mass incarceration greatly and made the city safer. We’ve got to go back to that. So, it can be done and I really believe it will be. And, you know, I’ve got to go in a minute, but I want to say, Ebro, I wore a, you know, festive, green holiday sweater for him. It wasn""t one of the gaudy sweaters, but you know, listen – [Laughter] Darden: Listen, de Blasio, you""re looking festive. But the day just started. And so, I want to see how festive you look after a full day in the office. Send us a photo. We""ll post it – [Laughter] When we get you on the show, your hair – you""re fresh out of the shower, fresh out of the gym, shirt is nice and ironed. Well, what you go through at City Hall, I don""t know how festive you""re going to look by five o""clock tonight. Rosenberg: It""s a great question. Mayor: It""s going to be like The Hangover, right? It""s going to be – [Laughter] Darden: Your hair is disheveled. All of a sudden you have a five o""clock shadow and it""s only three – Mayor: A series of mishaps by very tired people, that""s going to be me. Yeah. Now, listen, I""ll take that challenge. I""ll take that challenge. I""ll be fresh as a daisy, I""ll show you. Darden: Yeah, okay. Yeah, alright. Mayor: I""ll show you. But I hope we get together one more time before my time in this role is over. I really enjoyed and appreciate our dialogue over the years, guys. And it""s – Rosenberg: What""s your last day, Mayor? What""s the last day in office? Mayor: December 31st. Darden: New Year""s Eve. Mayor: I""m going to drop the ball off. Like, that""s like a mic drop for me. Drop the ball, peace out. [Laughter] Rosenberg: So, we""re never – so, wait, when you""re done, we""re never going to hear from you again? Mayor: You""ll hear from me. You""ll hear from me. Rosenberg: Actually, no, this is what we""re going to do. After Eric Adams is sworn in, then we""re going to have you back on the program, so then you can really talk crazy. You can really talk and say all the things you always wanted to say, but couldn""t – Mayor: I’m going to show up in, like, a Hawaiian shirt and sunglasses. Darden: Yeah – Mayor: Unplugged. Unplugged. Rosenberg: Whole different energy. Darden: You could have, like – you could have a nice beverage. You know what I mean? While we talk to you. Mayor: I could be drinking, like, pina colada at nine in the morning. Darden: Yeah. Why not? Why not? Rosenberg: Thank you, Mayor. Happy holidays. Darden: Thank you for your time today. Stylez: Thank you, Mayor. Mayor: Alright, guys. Take care. Happy holidays, everyone. ###